Stator output

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Stator output

Post  kiffernathan on Thu May 12, 2011 5:14 pm

Hi to all,

I've been rewiring my dual-sport kit, as it was a mess before (and is very slightly better now) and I can't get 12V DC out of the Pig anywhere. I have the North American model (of course), and I found out that it used AC power to power the headlight and taillight. I put in a rectifier/regulator to convert the stator output to 12V DC and am getting very strange voltage readings at the rectifier output. Essentially the voltage is bouncing around between about 4.5V and 11V when the bike is at dead idle, then when I rev the motor the voltage output appears to drop to around 2.5 volts and steady a bit.

This is waaaay wrong from what I should be seeing. Do I still need to connect one of the stator output wires to ground even when connecting it to a rectifier? Right now I have both the green and White/Yellow wires connected directly to the rectifier, with no ground in between. However, the wiring diagram for the BRP shows the green connected to ground as well as the original regulator.

Oh, and to top it all off, somehow the lights and signals worked before I did this. Should they have worked on AC power? I guess if the original headlight and tail light worked on AC then the new ones I've got on there should too. The horn never worked from when I bought it (I'm guessing the horn wouldn't work with AC power).

Any advice welcome!
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Re: Stator output

Post  Mauser on Thu May 12, 2011 6:28 pm

I had similar problems, my bike was a US import just basic lights etc. I added a rectifier and struggled to get a 12vdc horn to work....lack of volts. Luckily a friend swapped my loom and stator for a UK spec loom which solved all my problems + added indicators and brake lights which was a bonus.

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Potential solution

Post  kiffernathan on Thu May 12, 2011 8:49 pm

Found a potential solution at the end of this thread: http://www.xr650rforum.com/t1098-rewound-stator-voltage-output

Still open to suggestions, but I'll try hooking the battery up and see if it makes a difference.
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Re: Stator output

Post  BuRP on Fri May 13, 2011 8:38 am

Nathan,

Couple of things possibly wrong:
- if you've got AC AND DC then you have the Grounds interconnected.... which is a nono, you should (read: MUST) keep them electrically apart. Usually (mind, not always) it's best to ground the chassis for the AC, and keep the DC-ground afloat (wires only), to any part that need DC-grounding. When the grounds are 'mixed', like I suspect is in your case, you'll see "half" of the DC-voltage, around 6VDC - and this you sortof report is happening.
- also, it could be that your stator itself, the windings, ground to the engine - pls check? I know you rewound yourself but it's possible, and this aint any good. Also, for others, the older ElectroSport stators have this built-in, and this is a bit of a problem when you want dual (DC & AC) outputs, also so when you want to use dual Rect/Reg's, the latter impossible actually.
- any DC-reg needs smoothing, by cap or by battery. No real need to have both but it is beneficial - so if you've got space enough get both.
- on batteries, make 200% (yes, doubly!) sure the batt is fine FIRST!!! A shot batt will cause all sorts of false readings, too low voltages most common.... and this is what you have in the first place.

But I bet you've got the two grounds mixed up. Fix that and you'll be fine Wink

As an advanced warning already, do NOT use either the standard or any aftermarket-DS loom as the carrier for the main currents, the wires are simply too thin. Use a relay (with the correct ac or dc coil, remember pls) for feeding the large users, like headlight or heated grips or why, and string your own (fused!) conductors for these.
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Re: Stator output

Post  BuRP on Fri May 13, 2011 12:03 pm

Re-reading yours Nathan:

- definitely do not ground any of the stator wires!
- forget about any existing Pig wiring diagram as you now have a bigger stator, especially so when you will have both AC and DC regulators, or 'worse'(not actually), dual DC-reg's.

You also do not mention if you rewound for a single or dual stator-output:
- if single, you use it for both AC and DC? If Yes keep the grounds separate!
- if dual, what do you do with both outputs? If one AC and one DC keep the grounds separate!!!!

Only DC-reg's need a cap and/or batt for smoothing, and some of them may be finnicky to supply a 'smooth' voltage (which also depends on the loading - duh). But voltage-wise they will be there, unless you messed the grounds together.
And, some DC-reg's require the cap/batt to be connected to a separate wire (as the only termination!), this contrary to others who will have a common wire (load + cap/batt).

Hey, it could be that you messed up your stator winding, but only you will know that???
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Re: Stator output

Post  kiffernathan on Sat May 14, 2011 5:31 am

Thank you to all who have posted here to try to help me out. Turned out that the guy who posted on the other thread (about needing the battery connected to the rectifier) was right, and I also had my master switch connected incorrectly. These two problems together were pretty frustrating.

Anyway, I really appreciate the help, and have learned quite a bit from your posts regardless of what the actual problem turned out to be. I do know I won't ever ground the AC & DC together!
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Re: Stator output

Post  bikerman on Fri May 20, 2011 3:12 am

Hello Kris I wonder if you did fix your problem?
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Re: Stator output

Post  5mman on Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:23 am

Hi guys, I think the problem is probably that DC regulators don't like insufficient voltage. If it going to regulate to 12 volts it will need a nominal input voltage that is higher than that. There is no way around it with voltage regulators. Since the system will be built to not put out much more than 12 volts max (AC) you will never get enough DC after you rectify it to drive a regulator. Changing stators etc will do it, but that's a serious pain in the a$$.

In my opinion the best solution by far to run a 12 volt DC supply on a dirt bike with a stator as badly not designed for it as the 650r is a lipo battery pack with its own charge circuit and cell management. I lucked out as I have a friend who deals with lipo packs in Telco equipment. The pack I have is 8000 mWh. The charger accepts anything from 3 to 30 volts DC. It up-scales the DC input to 40 volts DC to charge the lipo. The lipo has its own cell management that balances the cells while charging and prevents the cell being drawn down too far (important for lipo cells). The DC output gives me either battery voltage or DC input voltage, which ever is higher, with 12 volts being the max it will output. The package is about 5" x 5" x 1.5" so it's a bit difficult to fit anywhere. I'll put it in my tank bag. It's not heavy, just an awkward size and shape.

The cell is a regular 3s lipo. If I were keen enough I'd pull the wrapper off the battery and build it again with a 3s 2200 mAh from my RC plane. If all you are running is phone and GPS chargers, shavers, etc etc, a 2000 mAh or so 3s would be heaps.

To get DC out of the bike I'll put a bridge rectifier on the headlight wires with a big capacitor after it. I don't care what the output voltage is so I won't regulate it at all.

Hope that helps. If I find any packs online I'll re-post.


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Re: Stator output

Post  appleseed on Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:01 pm

BuRP wrote:Re-reading yours Nathan:

- definitely do not ground any of the stator wires!
- forget about any existing Pig wiring diagram as you now have a bigger stator, especially so when you will have both AC and DC regulators, or 'worse'(not actually), dual DC-reg's.

You also do not mention if you rewound for a single or dual stator-output:
- if single, you use it for both AC and DC? If Yes keep the grounds separate!
- if dual, what do you do with both outputs? If one AC and one DC keep the grounds separate!!!!

Only DC-reg's need a cap and/or batt for smoothing, and some of them may be finnicky to supply a 'smooth' voltage (which also depends on the loading - duh). But voltage-wise they will be there, unless you messed the grounds together.
And, some DC-reg's require the cap/batt to be connected to a separate wire (as the only termination!), this contrary to others who will have a common wire (load + cap/batt).

Hey, it could be that you messed up your stator winding, but only you will know that???

Probably a stupid question...
But from what I can see the standard ED type (and possible the other ac/dc versions)  use the green wires as ground for both the AC and DC circuits. Are these grounds separated somewhere in the wiring harness? Or does this only apply to the rewound (ricky etc) stators?
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Re: Stator output

Post  Mad Frosty on Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:13 pm

The oem wireing on the euro/australian model infact uses common earth for both AC and DC , BUT when i changed the stator for higher output unit , things have changed .
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Re: Stator output

Post  appleseed on Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:36 pm

interestingly my stator is a rewound one (not sure if it is homemade or a ricky etc) and I get a stable voltage reading on the dc circuit.

can i expect issues Neutral
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Re: Stator output

Post  Mauser on Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:05 pm

I didn't think our bikes had an earth in the true sense ?....mine has an earth wire running through the loom it only uses the frame as an earth to short the coil out on the kill switch and I think thats only done because the coil is grounded to the frame....?
Not like the old cars used to be -earth and you only needed a +12 to your radio then the earth would be to the body/chassis.... listen up


Last edited by Mauser on Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Stator output

Post  BuRP on Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:31 am

Nope Mauser, you bike - AC innit? - does not have an 'earth' at all!
Let's call one of the two wires 'neutral' (for want of a word, it's wrong anyway), and this is the frame in your/our case.
The other wire ('phase', also a wrong nomer) is the 'supply' (wrong again but it makes visualizing easier), and this is the wire which goes to all users - well, erm, 'all'... the head- & taillight Bump
House wiring systems have an Earth, and a current between any of the two wires (ergo: the earth is the third wire!) will cause your earthleakage to trip. I mean, the expression of "Safe as Houses" does come from somewhere, or what?
Earthleakages are there to prevent involuntarily frying persons.
On this, what's black, fuzzy and hangs from the ceiling?
A blonde electrician razz

Back to bikes, a DC system has a ground, always the negative - although this is just an agreement, could as well have been the positive. The frame is used because it conducts electricity and this saves on wires, KIS.
With an AC system this can be done too so it is done like this, and of course it does not matter which of the 2 wires is chosen for this.
The problem only arises when one has both AC & DC on the same bike, things become interestingly complicated then. Either the frame is used for:
- DC-negative and AC-neutral both, however this is only possible if dual stator windings are used, and then these also must be electrically separate ie infinite resistivity between them
- either DC-negative OR AC-neutral if a single stator or shared/interconnected stators are used

As far as I know all 'larger' stators sold are single, however Electrosport's have dual windings - but beware,some of their old one's may be electrically interconnected.... which then limits one's options!
My E'sport stator has dual windings isolated from each other, and thus I can pick & choose whatever I like: dual AC, dual DC or a combination, and use the frame for either circuit.
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