How to winterized the BRP!

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How to winterized the BRP!

Post  bikerman on Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:22 am

Hello to everybody, as all you know here in Canada the nice weather is almost a weekend away, winter is here and I need to storage my ride which I really enjoy this year not as much as I wanted to but at least I did. This is my first winter with her and I have no idea what to do, it sound stupid but I rather be safe than sorry next Spring. so please any inputs I would apreciated them. I know BURP will know what to do for sure! LOL Smile
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Re: How to winterized the BRP!

Post  mamacone on Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:20 am

bikerman wrote:Hello to everybody, as all you know here in Canada the nice weather is almost a weekend away, winter is here and I need to storage my ride which I really enjoy this year not as much as I wanted to but at least I did. This is my first winter with her and I have no idea what to do, it sound stupid but I rather be safe than sorry next Spring. so please any inputs I would apreciated them. I know BURP will know what to do for sure! LOL Smile

If it is in a garage, all I would do is drain the carburetor (loosen the big nut on the bottom of the bowl), lube the chain and store the battery in the house. I also like to start mine every once in a while over the winter.
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Re: How to winterized the BRP!

Post  AURORA on Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:58 am

Park it in your heated living room.

Only a Infidel or Canadian would park their pig outside in cold of winter. mad as heck

Though I would drain all of the fuel, fog the motor, grease chain, hit all electrical connections with dielectric grease then spray everything down, except rotors and brake pads, with silicone spray.

Check what the freezing temperature is for your coolant. If you think it might get that cold outside, I would drain all of the coolant and remember to fill with Evans coolant in the spring.
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Re: How to winterized the BRP!

Post  BuRP on Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:58 pm

BM,

easy: crate it, PM me for my address & send it over. Warm here, dry too, and I'm an exceptionally trustworthy person, even more so with Pigs. Will nurse it and feed it well, new hay every week, fresh water..... whoa, wrong forum?
razz

Clean it ex-cep-ti-onal-ly well fist! Toothbrush-level applies here, and dry it well. Some Turtle wax won't go amiss, and then you lube whatever needs lubing: chain (chaingrease, NOT wax!), levers, footpegs, anything that moves. Also the cable mind, bad idea to forget them. Airfilter clean too, new oil & filter in, all spic & span.
Some Q20 (an aerosol, waterdispersant & lube) on the various electrics, inside the switches etc,
Then, not only drain the carb (and leave it open even) but also drain the tank, fully.
Remove the sparkplug, pour/squirt a few drops of new engine oil in the hole, kick it around a few times, and then loosely screw-in the plug (which thread btw you smear lightly with copper compound).
Got a battery? Take it out, check fluid level if applicable, and put it under a tender (CTek is a superb one) the entire winter.
Then, store it in your dry garage or put it in your bed, whatever.
When summer comes unscrew the plug, kick it around, put plug back proper, close carb, put petrol in and start. Yeah, it'll smoke a bit, that oil you see... BRP smile

NEVER start any engine when in storage, it is bad for it as it will not (can not!) reach the proper temperature to clean itself. Store it as per above, it's best.
Mind though, maybe a good idea to service it properly? Wheelbearings, headstock, swingarm, suspension, shock, whatever you haven't touched yet but should have done already Wink

Edit: I'd put it on a stand, suspension fully extended. The, lift the ballows and squirt a bit of Q20 on the stanchoins, and remount the rubbers. Just squirt a bit in the rear shock as well.


Last edited by BuRP on Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: How to winterized the BRP!

Post  BuRP on Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:05 pm

On the whole Aurora's a good bloke, but he misses on 2 accounts here.
Never ever store a liquid cooled engine dry, it will corrode inside. Check your coolant for its anti-freeze properties (or have it done), or fill with undiluted antifreeze if required. But drain this in Spring again, don't forget this.
If you hate your Pig put Evans in it, it will cook itself nicely.
Mind, this stuff you may want to fill it with for storage only - just don't ever run it with it.
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Re: How to winterized the BRP!

Post  AURORA on Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:56 pm

BuRP wrote:On the whole Aurora's a good bloke, but he misses on 2 accounts here.
Never ever store a liquid cooled engine dry, it will corrode inside. Check your coolant for its anti-freeze properties (or have it done), or fill with undiluted antifreeze if required. But drain this in Spring again, don't forget this.
If you hate your Pig put Evans in it, it will cook itself nicely.
Mind, this stuff you may want to fill it with for storage only - just don't ever run it with it.

I have no problems with Evans coolant. I have Evans in both my pig and CBR1100XX. No problems.

The temp gauge on the CBRXX show the engine runs a few degrees cooler with the Evans.

So, I am courious about BuRP's statement.

Water is an awesome coolant, until it boils. Yes boiling absorbs a lot of heat, but the vapour shields the metal from liquid coolant allowing an extreme rise in local temperature initiating detonation. The issue is not engine failure due to overheating, but rather coolant failure. When the coolant fails, then the engine experiences damage. When local boiling (usually around the exhaust valves first) allows a hot spot to form, you get detonation. When the coolant temp gets too close to its boiling point, the low pressure side of the pump cavitates, reducing flow. Water expands 60 times more as a vapor than Evans Coolants.

A higher temperature differential between the air temp and the coolant temp in the radiator leads to more efficient cooling. You get more heat out of the engine with a higher coolant temp as long as it's not boiling. Water acts the same regardless of what is added to it. (I know, water wetter reduces surface tension, ethylene glycol raises boiling point, etc.) What I mean is that once water vapor is formed, its temperature needs to drop below its boiling point (not the boiling point of an 80/20 or 50/50 mix) to recondense.

Here is a comment from another BRP owner:

"I have a xr650r and have used Evans+ for years with a 0psi cap. and stock radiators.
When I bought my bike it would boil over all the time in the SoCal desert. and the oil temp dip stick would show over 300F. After flushing with the Evans prep liquid(not sure what that stuff is) and filling with the coolant. my bike has run great and the oil temp never gets over 250F. I can ride all day at Gorman in August and never over heat, the bike that is."
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Re: How to winterized the BRP!

Post  BuRP on Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:33 pm

Aurora,

somewhere on this forum I explained in detail why this stuff ain't a good idea, but it basically boils down to (pun very appropriate here) the substantially lower-than-water specific heat - it absorbs way less heat than water does.
This results in a higher operating temperature because the pump flows precisely the same volume, which absorbs less heat whilst the engine keeps producing the same amount.

Vapour bubbles in an engine is a myth but for extremely high tuned engines, dragsters spring to mind here, and thus the babble on their site is just that.
Your "A higher temperature differential between the air temp and the coolant temp in the radiator leads to more efficient cooling" is sort-of true - but, that's the radiator-side only, the cooling-side.
Mind telling where this higher (than with water) temperature differential comes from?
From a hotter-running engine of course.

I do not believe that your engines run cooler with Evans than when run with water, however I trust you you won't lie, some oddity with your gauge no doubt. However, I also am convinced that you never tried back the normal coolant - do this? It will indicate 'cooler', my cock on a block Wink

Edit: on this, your Blackbird has a way higher over-capacity cooling-wise than the Pig has, hence it will flow a quantity governed by the thermostat. A fractionally higher temp will lead to a quite larger opening hence considerably higher flow > hence more cooling capacity, pls bear this in mind. Not so much the Pig, it's not designed for waiting at traffic lights after all, and you'll see a bigger temp-diff here.
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Re: How to winterized the BRP!

Post  bikerman on Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:37 pm

Thanks BURP for your kindness of keeping her on your fresh water and hot weather there but I will leave it on my garage, I had leaving my mustang there before and no problems, it is not heated garage but it is ok, I would love to bring her inside and work next to my fireplace but I don't think I have the room though LOL! I will keep using the honda coolant, may be just change the oil and filter drain the carb and lube the chain and wait anxious for next spring, I want to do some mods on her but haven't decided what yet, may be I go with some nice headers and pipe, and some mototard wheels so far, may be new gears and chain, don't know what size yet may be some ideas would be gladly appreciated. cheers
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Re: How to winterized the BRP!

Post  bikerman on Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:39 pm

I just posted some pics on the galeria of the last ride today if you guys are interested, though let you know.
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Re: How to winterized the BRP!

Post  AURORA on Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:38 am

BuRP wrote:Aurora,

somewhere on this forum I explained in detail why this stuff ain't a good idea, but it basically boils down to (pun very appropriate here) the substantially lower-than-water specific heat - it absorbs way less heat than water does.
This results in a higher operating temperature because the pump flows precisely the same volume, which absorbs less heat whilst the engine keeps producing the same amount.

Vapour bubbles in an engine is a myth but for extremely high tuned engines, dragsters spring to mind here, and thus the babble on their site is just that.
Your "A higher temperature differential between the air temp and the coolant temp in the radiator leads to more efficient cooling" is sort-of true - but, that's the radiator-side only, the cooling-side.
Mind telling where this higher (than with water) temperature differential comes from?
From a hotter-running engine of course.

I do not believe that your engines run cooler with Evans than when run with water, however I trust you you won't lie, some oddity with your gauge no doubt. However, I also am convinced that you never tried back the normal coolant - do this? It will indicate 'cooler', my cock on a block Wink

Edit: on this, your Blackbird has a way higher over-capacity cooling-wise than the Pig has, hence it will flow a quantity governed by the thermostat. A fractionally higher temp will lead to a quite larger opening hence considerably higher flow > hence more cooling capacity, pls bear this in mind. Not so much the Pig, it's not designed for waiting at traffic lights after all, and you'll see a bigger temp-diff here.

A liquid transfers more heat than vapor.

No gone to waste time any more buying Honda coolant to make a second confirmation than my CBRXX ad XRR engines runs cooler using Evans coolant.

Water boils at 212 degrees F or 100 degrees C

Here are some numbers to consider:

Here are some typical temperatures (all in Fahrenheit) at a steady highway speed of 65 mph in 90-degree still air:
cylinder head - 275 cylinder base
230 cam cover 210
engine oil intake 190
At a steady 75 mph these temperatures were all about 10 degrees higher.

Now you do the math on wether your water based coolant is turning into vapor.

Let's see. If no vaporization of water of your coolant, you would not have any increase in coolant system presure. But you show an error in your logic. You do have up to maybe 16 times atmospheric pressure. With Evans coolant you have no vaporization of coolant. Thus, yes I know water in a liquid states transfer more heat than evans coolant, but Evans transfers more heat than water vapor.

I have a simple challenge and test for you to prove me wrong on the cooling/vapor issue. How about we both get our BRPs up to full operating temperature. We then both remove the radiator caps. If you are correct that thre is no water vapor produce with your water based engine coolant, then you will have no fear from being burned by the coolant spraying out of the radiator.

I can do this test with Evans coolant. Zero system pressure. No vapor pressure thus more heat transfer. Thus better cooling and no corrosion from water.


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Re: How to winterized the BRP!

Post  BuRP on Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:39 pm

Aurora,

you're a Buddy, good bloke, decent chap, friendly tone of your posts etc etc, and therefore there's no way I even think of getting into an argument with you - I'd rather buy you a few beers.
Therefore I'll make some points hereunder, after which I will consider my contribution closed on this silly subject.

And silly it is: thermal oil (sillicon, used in thermosolar setups, resistant to a lot higher temps than evans) is a sterling corrosion inhibitor, way better than coolant, evans or even mineral oil. Why is this not used in engines, it would be ideal surely?
Simple, it has an even lower specific heat (heatcontent) than evans. Could it be used? Of course, you only have to design the engine for it, increase the flow as well as increase the exchange-surfaces (engine-internals and radiator). Quite costly though, and for what benefit exactly? Coolant (= water) works fine the world over, and is cheap.
Any conductive heating/cooling process involves heat-transfers. Both heating and cooling sides are absolutely identical, pls note, only the heat-'direction' is different. They involve a deltaT (temp-diff) and mass-flow (the cooling media, which can be a gas or liquid, even a solid), and, based on the heat-content of the choosen media (the specific heat factor), a system is calculated for temps & exchange-surfaces.
That means that once the media is chosen, ergo the heat-factor, a system is fixed, it will run at specific temperatures.
Now you change the media to another, with a lower heat-content - which has the absolute direct inevitable result that the deltaT will grow, the temp-differential goes up which of course means the temperatures become higher (mind, all relationally to ambient which is a constant).
Yes indeed, any radiator becomes way more efficient when you flow a lot higher temperature through it, but this irrevocably means that exactly the same happens at the heating side... in the engine, the medium will be lifted to higher temps during the pass though the engine! Evans actually admits this, the operating temp will become 'higher', note the undefined quantity pls. Of course this is the case, it's impossible not to!
A gas has a lower heat-content by a factor of some 2500 compared to a liquid. Of course this is mass-related, as heat is stored in mass only, but also this relates directly to the volume, inverse of course.
No rad-cap lifts atmospheric pressure by 16 times, the std one does by 0.2 - which is sufficient when racing this bike. But I stop at red lights, therefore have increased it to 0.6 times, an increase of only 0.4 bar/atmosphere, nothing major, just a bit better.
Remove the cap and there's no pressure? Wrong, there is ambient pressure, 1 Atmosphere to be precise. Any liquid - also evans, pls note - needs 'a' pressure to prevent it from boiling (again, at any temperature, also at deep subsero temps!), so that comparison goes lame. At the engine-temps we speak of here it is just a coincidence that coolant (mainly water) needs to be pressurized, by keeping the cap on. And, by doing this no vapors can exist inside, unless heated to the thus-obtained higher boiling point.
But also, a liquid does not expand when heated? Very wrong, but especially so for water, as this stuff does expand a lot even! Nature is based on this fact: at 4.2C it is densest, it stays a liquid under ice, protected by its thermosyphon effect. If this would not be the case the polar caps would become solid though & through, you realize this? But heat water to engine-temps and it will expand, a lot even, and no surprise that we all have expansion vessels on engines, central heating systems, geysers, boilers etc etc. Btw, evans also expands. If you would do that comparison of removing caps at say 80C then exactly the same happens: both will pop&leak a bit, and stop thereafter.
Evans is only sold in the US, nowhere else in the world, and no OEM designs for its lower-than-water heat-content. Think about what this means. It has a ~30% lower heat content than water, which means one reduces one's cooling capacity by the same 30%.
That's why I say don't use it, but hey, it your bike? You may do exactly like you want, feel, believe or think, as this is an entirely free society we live in, do as you like!
Cheers Aurora, I'll have a virtual beer with you cheers
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Re: How to winterized the BRP!

Post  BuRP on Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:53 pm

Demmit BM,

and here's to my hoping for that truck arriving here, offloading a crate with a niiiiiice surprise razz
Oh well, we're sortof polar opposites, and I know Grizzly's hibernate - just never knew Pigs do too BRP smile
Here's to hoping your Spring comes a week early banana
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Re: How to winterized the BRP!

Post  AURORA on Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:53 pm

BuRP wrote:Aurora,

you're a Buddy, good bloke, decent chap, friendly tone of your posts etc etc, and therefore there's no way I even think of getting into an argument with you - I'd rather buy you a few beers.
Therefore I'll make some points hereunder, after which I will consider my contribution closed on this silly subject.

And silly it is: thermal oil (sillicon, used in thermosolar setups, resistant to a lot higher temps than evans) is a sterling corrosion inhibitor, way better than coolant, evans or even mineral oil. Why is this not used in engines, it would be ideal surely?
Simple, it has an even lower specific heat (heatcontent) than evans. Could it be used? Of course, you only have to design the engine for it, increase the flow as well as increase the exchange-surfaces (engine-internals and radiator). Quite costly though, and for what benefit exactly? Coolant (= water) works fine the world over, and is cheap.
Any conductive heating/cooling process involves heat-transfers. Both heating and cooling sides are absolutely identical, pls note, only the heat-'direction' is different. They involve a deltaT (temp-diff) and mass-flow (the cooling media, which can be a gas or liquid, even a solid), and, based on the heat-content of the choosen media (the specific heat factor), a system is calculated for temps & exchange-surfaces.
That means that once the media is chosen, ergo the heat-factor, a system is fixed, it will run at specific temperatures.
Now you change the media to another, with a lower heat-content - which has the absolute direct inevitable result that the deltaT will grow, the temp-differential goes up which of course means the temperatures become higher (mind, all relationally to ambient which is a constant).
Yes indeed, any radiator becomes way more efficient when you flow a lot higher temperature through it, but this irrevocably means that exactly the same happens at the heating side... in the engine, the medium will be lifted to higher temps during the pass though the engine! Evans actually admits this, the operating temp will become 'higher', note the undefined quantity pls. Of course this is the case, it's impossible not to!
A gas has a lower heat-content by a factor of some 2500 compared to a liquid. Of course this is mass-related, as heat is stored in mass only, but also this relates directly to the volume, inverse of course.
No rad-cap lifts atmospheric pressure by 16 times, the std one does by 0.2 - which is sufficient when racing this bike. But I stop at red lights, therefore have increased it to 0.6 times, an increase of only 0.4 bar/atmosphere, nothing major, just a bit better.
Remove the cap and there's no pressure? Wrong, there is ambient pressure, 1 Atmosphere to be precise. Any liquid - also evans, pls note - needs 'a' pressure to prevent it from boiling (again, at any temperature, also at deep subsero temps!), so that comparison goes lame. At the engine-temps we speak of here it is just a coincidence that coolant (mainly water) needs to be pressurized, by keeping the cap on. And, by doing this no vapors can exist inside, unless heated to the thus-obtained higher boiling point.
But also, a liquid does not expand when heated? Very wrong, but especially so for water, as this stuff does expand a lot even! Nature is based on this fact: at 4.2C it is densest, it stays a liquid under ice, protected by its thermosyphon effect. If this would not be the case the polar caps would become solid though & through, you realize this? But heat water to engine-temps and it will expand, a lot even, and no surprise that we all have expansion vessels on engines, central heating systems, geysers, boilers etc etc. Btw, evans also expands. If you would do that comparison of removing caps at say 80C then exactly the same happens: both will pop&leak a bit, and stop thereafter.
Evans is only sold in the US, nowhere else in the world, and no OEM designs for its lower-than-water heat-content. Think about what this means. It has a ~30% lower heat content than water, which means one reduces one's cooling capacity by the same 30%.
That's why I say don't use it, but hey, it your bike? You may do exactly like you want, feel, believe or think, as this is an entirely free society we live in, do as you like!
Cheers Aurora, I'll have a virtual beer with you cheers

This is what is good about this forum. We gain informaiton from fellow members and decide which route to follow.

I repect your opinion and will drink with you anytime!

Cheers! cheers

PS if you could convince Sofia Veraga to drink with us that would be good of you!
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